Talk:Lazuli
Article Name I feel the name of this article and her brother are a bit confusing and misleading. I am aware of this interview, in which 17 and 18's name are revealed. However, I think we've misinterpreted the question asked to Toriyama and his response. Q5: Please tell me Artificial Humans No. 17 and No. 18's names from '''back when they were humans'!'' Toriyama: No. 17 is Lapis, No. 18 is Lazuli! ^This means that in the past, those were their names as humans. The articles give off the impression that "Lapis" and "Lazuli" are their current names, which is untrue. In the manga and the anime, Android 18 is consistently referred to as "No. 18" or "18", not "Lazuli". From the question and answer, I think this means Androids 17 and 18 were formerly known as "Lapis" and "Lazuli", respectively, and are now known as "17" and "18", as they've been and are currently referred to as. Keeping the names "Lapis" and "Lazuli" across with wiki will confuse readers, as most of them will be unaware of the interview in the first place if they don't come across this article. My proposal is an article rename and altering of the first paragraph like so: ---- , formerly known as while she was a Human, is a Human-turned-Android. Initially being a supporting antagonist of the series, she later becomes the wife of Kuririn and the mother of their only daughter, Marron. ---- Again, to repeat, in the manga and even in Super she is currently known as "18". "Lazuli" is her former name. In both medias, she didn't go back to calling herself "Lazuli" and I don't think we should either. As a human, she was "Lazuli". As an Android, she's "18". 23:51, December 15, 2015 (UTC) :By misunderstanding, I once thought they're real names. Akin to Kakarrot, what you've refered makes more sense. --— [[User:Sulina|''The Tragedy'' of L]] 00:26, December 16, 2015 (UTC) :If we make this change, does that mean that we have to rename Mark as Satan ?--[[User Talk:Lulcielid|'最強の戦士' Lulcy]] 00:42, December 16, 2015 (UTC) ::@Lin Exactly, I was also thinking the same with "Kakarrot". Goku was born as "Kakarrot", but was renamed to his current name and continues to use that name. Same with the androids. Android 18 was born "Lazuli", but was renamed to "18" and continues to use that name and respond to it. ::@Lulcy, I'm not sure that case is the same as this one. "Mister Satan" is a stage name, not his real name like "Mark" is. "Mark" is still Mister Satan's current name. My issue is that "Lapis" and "Lazuli" are former names for the androids, not their current ones in "17" and "18". ::EDIT: Even though readers most likely won't recognize "Mark" either, a reader's recognition was not my only reason why I think the articles should be renamed. The way the articles currently are, they reflect that "Lapis" and "Lazuli" are their current names, which is not true. From the framing of the question in the interview with Toriyama, the interviewer was asking for what the androids were formerly referred to. 00:51, December 16, 2015 (UTC) ::We can´t fight againts Windy logic, change should be done.--[[User Talk:Lulcielid|'最強の戦士' Lulcy]] 00:59, December 16, 2015 (UTC) ::EDIT: Acording to our Manual of Style we have to write the official characters name, while keeping how they are adressed in-universe.--[[User Talk:Lulcielid|'最強の戦士' Lulcy]] 01:12, December 16, 2015 (UTC) :::@Lulcy, I'm aware of that. And I'm sure whoever (between Ten and Aha) decided to use "Lapis" and "Lazuli" rather than their in-universe names are aware of that too, but they used "Lapis lazuli" anyway. So let's just hold on a little to see their reasoning for using that instead, if possible. I anticipate their reasoning is because Toriyama's words supersedes everything else, including the manga (hence why we use "Mark" as the article name instead of "Mister Satan"), but I made this topic because I think the were a bit misled on that interview. :::My proposal also included a rename of the article and 17's article too, so I need some type of agreement from Ten or Aha before that happens. 01:28, December 16, 2015 (UTC) ---- My proposal, the naming convention states that: *Character articles should be titled simply with the character's name and should not include their title. *The character's official name should always be the title of the article(...) While the article layout states: *'Articles' should be written in an in-universe style, this includes calling characters by what they were called at this point in the story, and not refer to the reader or viewer when talking about events. If we follow what our rules, the article title remains unchange (Lazuli) while the article body has to go throught some modifications (Number 18 > Lazuli). Unless we you want to have her title changed as Number 18 and the article body being writen with Number 18 as well, we will have to tweak our manual of style. --[[User Talk:Lulcielid|'最強の戦士' Lulcy]] 02:01, December 16, 2015 (UTC) :Technically, "Number 18" is not a title. A "title" would be something like "King", "Captain" or "Doctor". Due to that policy, we use Cold, Ginyū and Gero, rather than King Cold, Captain Ginyu, or Doctor Gero as the article name. :"Number 18" is also her official name because that's what she's officially referred to as in the manga. Therefore, both Number 18 and Lazuli are just as official. "Kakarrot" and "Goku" are also official names, yet "Goku" is used as the article title because that's his current name. He was formerly known as "Kakarrot". Similarly, Android 18, as a human, is known as "Lazuli", which is her former name. Now, she's no longer a human, she's an android, and she's currently known simply as "18". :Again, keeping "Lapis" and "Lazuli" as the title gives off the impression they those are the androids' current names, which is not true. Those are their former names. We don't name Goku's article "Kakarrot" because that was the name he was simply born with. But I do agree with using things like "No. 18" or "Mister Satan" in articles. 02:12, December 16, 2015 (UTC) :::I personally object to this. "18" and "17" are not 'names' but numerical designations given to them by Gero. "Lapis" and "Lazuli" are their names, in a similar vein to the fact that "Mark" is Mr. Satan's actual name, while Mr. Satan is a stage name. Gokū is a more unique case, as 'Kakarot' is his birth name, but "Son Gokū" is his adopted name, making it very much a legitimate name, and not merely a designation (like how Gero designation's the Androids in the order of their creation: 8, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20). —Mina Țepeș 04:39, December 16, 2015 (UTC) :::::We even phrase it that way in her introduction, that she is designated ''as Number 18 by Gero.—Mina Țepeș 04:40, December 16, 2015 (UTC) ''"18" and "17" are not 'names' but numerical designations given to them by Gero. Yet, Android 18 is consistently referred to as "18" by others in the manga. Yes, it would be considered a name based on that and that alone. She never went back to "Lazuli". "Lapis" and "Lazuli" are their names, in a similar vein to the fact that "Mark" is Mr. Satan's actual name, while Mr. Satan is a stage name. No, "Lapis" and "Lazuli" are their former names, not their current ones. To bring up the interview again: Q5: Please tell me Artificial Humans No. 17 and No. 18's names from '''back when they were humans'!'' Toriyama: No. 17 is Lapis, No. 18 is Lazuli! In the context of the question that was asked, the interview is clearing asking what their former names were when they were humans. They are no longer humans, and they are now androids. They were formerly known as "Lapis" and "Lazuli", just like Goku was formerly known as "Kakarot". We even phrase it that way in her introduction, that she is ''designated ''as Number 18 by Gero. And they've been referred to by that designation ever since, which they've clearly accepted. 18 never went back to "Lazuli". Again, she is consistently referred to as "18" in all other media. While I'm aware that Toriyama does supersede all of that, the context of the question that was asked was referring to what they used to be called in the past. Not what they're currently called. They are no longer known as "Lapis" and "Lazuli", and I don't think the article should reflect that as if it were the case either. 04:54, December 16, 2015 (UTC) : 17 and 18 are still 'humans' in a sense. They're merely humans with cybernetic enhancements, they aren't completely constructed from nothing, like 8, 16, and 19 are. Their designations are Nos. 17 and 18 because they were the seventeenth and eighteenth androids to be created by Gero. However, their names, which is the point of the article title, are Lapis and Lazuli. Even if their consider 17 and 18 names, they're only aliases, and to call them 17 and 18 would be like calling Obito "Tobi" or "Madara" because that's what he was called for most of the Naruto series. Or calling Atem "Yugi" because that's what he was called for most of the series. Even BLEACH Wiki got in on this, changing "Hollow Ichigo" to "Zangetsu" once it was revealed who he was. Hell, in the case of Obito and Atem, they PREFERRED their Aliases, just like 17 and 18 do theirs. Atem was still called 'Yugi' by everyone even though he was confirmed to NOT be Yugi. Obito outright told Naruto to call him Tobi or Madara, and his old name meant nothing, even after it was revealed that he wasn't Madara.—Mina Țepeș 05:19, December 16, 2015 (UTC) ::None of those examples relate to how Toriyama was telling the interviewer the former names of the androids. I don't know too much about Bleach, but, preferences for "aliases" or not, Obito went back to "Obito" later in the war (when he told Madara that he was Obito Uchiha who wanted to become Hokage). Yami Yugi went back to "Atem" (telling the Eye of Wdjat his true name "Atem") once he returned to his world (and on the Yu-Gi-Oh Wiki, Atem and Yami Yugi are two separate articles so...). 17 and 18 never went back to "Lapis" and "Lazuli", because those are their former names. "17" and "18" are no longer "aliases" if they've accepted them as their true names. Kuririn still refers to his wife as "18". It's no alias. ::I can tell that this will get nowhere. So I suppose I yield in that regard. Not gonna take any responsibility for any readers encountering confusion once they come here. 05:50, December 16, 2015 (UTC) Not sure how much this will add to the conversation. List of wikis that uses the Number/Android/Cyboard 18 as her name and adress her as such in the article: *DBWIKI *Spanish DBWIKI *ENWikipedia *Spanish Wikipedia *I don´t know what language Wiki They all uses 18 when talking about her in the article & only use Lazuli once (to let the readers that she has another name). We also have Android 18 as a redirect.--[[User Talk:Lulcielid|'最強の戦士' Lulcy]] 16:16, December 16, 2015 (UTC) : We aren't those other wikis. Lazuli and Lapis are their names. We have "Android 18", "Android 17", "Number 18", and "Number 17" as redirects to take them right to the article pages, and references so they know where the names come from. Unless a person is coming to this wiki unable to read, they should be able to see precisely who is who, and see where the name originated from as well to prevent any confusion.—Mina Țepeș 20:05, December 16, 2015 (UTC)